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	<title>Comments for Social Europe Journal</title>
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	<link>http://www.social-europe.eu</link>
	<description>debating progressive politics in Europe and beyond</description>
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		<title>Comment on Democratic Politics beyond the Third Way by Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/democratic-politics-beyond-the-third-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3828</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3360#comment-3828</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re absolutely right - and Dimitris must understand that &quot;social democratic&quot; parties in the EU now contain many former communist apparatchiks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re absolutely right &#8211; and Dimitris must understand that &#8220;social democratic&#8221; parties in the EU now contain many former communist apparatchiks.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Really Help Africa? by Lemma Assea</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/how-to-really-help-africa/comment-page-1/#comment-3820</link>
		<dc:creator>Lemma Assea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3382#comment-3820</guid>
		<description>Africa is left to rote by organised Mafia of former official colonisers. IMF &amp; World Bank are 100% under US &amp; European control. Unless something happen in the world Africa will not be giving a chance like Asia. Always there are lots of excuses to stop investment flow in to Africa. Instability, corruption, military ...  But, if we look back less than a 1/2 a century ago European &amp; USA were investing like mad in “back warded Buddhist country , as you call them then” Thailand, Indonesia was under General Suharto and most of S E Asia was in turmoil and no democratic government I can pick of at that time. Despite all that banks were assured to pour the pension fund even when corruptions were rife at the property market at that time. Banks were reporting back wide spread corruptions at that. time. The policy of IMF &amp; so called World Bank was no going back once we poured our money to counter the corruption pour more money  was the policy of West. Chilli &amp; Brazil in S America was under Military dictatorships when billions &amp; billions were invested in dam  other &amp;constructions so on.  

Europe &amp; West in general they demand a child before birth. To get investment Africa has to do which is the impossible thing in the whole of human history. That is 1st to be civilised with out no infrastructure and then the so called civilized world might consider investment. I HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD SUCH BLIND EXCUSE. 

Europe was condemning China for investing in Africa. The lecturer was a former Hungarian communist and now the top of Hedge Fund boss. Imagine A hedge fund boss lecturing economics! This tell much about so called 7 wise men (I mean bank of England bosses) of Britain. 

Can you imagine the corruption in hedge fund in USA and GB as well as GREECE has happened in Africa? Europe &amp; America will tell the world that, what do you expect from Africa? How many take over in Africa is caused purely by African? More than 90% were /will be sponsored by European governments or direct involvement like the son of former British Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher, in West Africa.  O&#039;I remember his name was Mark Thatcher. The Sudan conflict was sponsored by a US citizen. During Toni Blair primer ship, he moved some where in Chelsea  West London, and so on and on. The Rwanda conflict was directly encouraged and lead by France &amp; Belgium to wipe out well educated but their crime was in English language. These are some the most recent events. Arab sponsored gorilla warfare has been going all over Ethiopia for the last ½ century. You laugh at Ethiopias poverty, the real casue is surrounding Barbaric Political oriented religion. Gabitto!

Do you give a toss to the rest of Africa beyond Zimbabwe and S Africa?

Lemma (Sorry, nglish is not even my 3rd language)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Africa is left to rote by organised Mafia of former official colonisers. IMF &amp; World Bank are 100% under US &amp; European control. Unless something happen in the world Africa will not be giving a chance like Asia. Always there are lots of excuses to stop investment flow in to Africa. Instability, corruption, military &#8230;  But, if we look back less than a 1/2 a century ago European &amp; USA were investing like mad in “back warded Buddhist country , as you call them then” Thailand, Indonesia was under General Suharto and most of S E Asia was in turmoil and no democratic government I can pick of at that time. Despite all that banks were assured to pour the pension fund even when corruptions were rife at the property market at that time. Banks were reporting back wide spread corruptions at that. time. The policy of IMF &amp; so called World Bank was no going back once we poured our money to counter the corruption pour more money  was the policy of West. Chilli &amp; Brazil in S America was under Military dictatorships when billions &amp; billions were invested in dam  other &amp;constructions so on.  </p>
<p>Europe &amp; West in general they demand a child before birth. To get investment Africa has to do which is the impossible thing in the whole of human history. That is 1st to be civilised with out no infrastructure and then the so called civilized world might consider investment. I HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD SUCH BLIND EXCUSE. </p>
<p>Europe was condemning China for investing in Africa. The lecturer was a former Hungarian communist and now the top of Hedge Fund boss. Imagine A hedge fund boss lecturing economics! This tell much about so called 7 wise men (I mean bank of England bosses) of Britain. </p>
<p>Can you imagine the corruption in hedge fund in USA and GB as well as GREECE has happened in Africa? Europe &amp; America will tell the world that, what do you expect from Africa? How many take over in Africa is caused purely by African? More than 90% were /will be sponsored by European governments or direct involvement like the son of former British Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher, in West Africa.  O&#8217;I remember his name was Mark Thatcher. The Sudan conflict was sponsored by a US citizen. During Toni Blair primer ship, he moved some where in Chelsea  West London, and so on and on. The Rwanda conflict was directly encouraged and lead by France &amp; Belgium to wipe out well educated but their crime was in English language. These are some the most recent events. Arab sponsored gorilla warfare has been going all over Ethiopia for the last ½ century. You laugh at Ethiopias poverty, the real casue is surrounding Barbaric Political oriented religion. Gabitto!</p>
<p>Do you give a toss to the rest of Africa beyond Zimbabwe and S Africa?</p>
<p>Lemma (Sorry, nglish is not even my 3rd language)</p>
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		<title>Comment on An EU Budget for the 21st Century by starry plough</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/an-eu-budget-for-the-21st-century/comment-page-1/#comment-3819</link>
		<dc:creator>starry plough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 10:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3388#comment-3819</guid>
		<description>The ideas expressed above are once again taking power into centralised european institutions and away from nation states. 

i have no problem with this in principle, but I have a major problem with the underhand way this is being done. Next to nobody in Ireland or Britain is being honest to the people about where we are heading and the creation of the European super state.

As a result of this dishonesty i believe major problems lie ahead. If the left believes in anything surely it is being open with the people and allowing them to have power over society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ideas expressed above are once again taking power into centralised european institutions and away from nation states. </p>
<p>i have no problem with this in principle, but I have a major problem with the underhand way this is being done. Next to nobody in Ireland or Britain is being honest to the people about where we are heading and the creation of the European super state.</p>
<p>As a result of this dishonesty i believe major problems lie ahead. If the left believes in anything surely it is being open with the people and allowing them to have power over society.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Democratic Politics beyond the Third Way by Joseph Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/democratic-politics-beyond-the-third-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3809</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3360#comment-3809</guid>
		<description>Mr. Richmond...What in blazes is &quot;neo-liberal, Washington-based, military-humanism&quot;?
Define, please, for an American still dazed by Bush-era capitalism-on-steroids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Richmond&#8230;What in blazes is &#8220;neo-liberal, Washington-based, military-humanism&#8221;?<br />
Define, please, for an American still dazed by Bush-era capitalism-on-steroids.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Democratic Politics beyond the Third Way by John Richmond</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/democratic-politics-beyond-the-third-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3792</link>
		<dc:creator>John Richmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 04:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3360#comment-3792</guid>
		<description>As a social democract I too was raised to believe the foundation story we tell ourselves about &quot;opposing Soviet Communism&quot;.  But this is just not true and it is time we admitted it to ourselves and the world.

Our journey began with the decision to reform rather than oppose capitalism.  &quot;Soviet&quot; Communism was about worker ownership and participation - many social democrats supported those ideas even though our parties did not.  It was Stalin who turned us firmly against the USSR.  

Sadly, our project then took a nasty, nationalistic turn when we decided to support our respective governments during World War I.  The Communists opposed the War.    

Once we embarked on the Parliamentary road to &quot;socialism&quot; we began the process of joining the political and economic establishment and gradually moved away from large scale participatory democracy.  The legacy we live with today is that we are no longer a mass movement.  Most of our parties have few members and our organizations are highly centralized and corporate in nature.  In many countries (such as here in Canada and in much of Latin America) we are slowly disappearing from the landscape.  

We have little or no &quot;ideology&quot; left and have more-or-less folded into the global project of neo-liberal, Washington-based, military-humanism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a social democract I too was raised to believe the foundation story we tell ourselves about &#8220;opposing Soviet Communism&#8221;.  But this is just not true and it is time we admitted it to ourselves and the world.</p>
<p>Our journey began with the decision to reform rather than oppose capitalism.  &#8220;Soviet&#8221; Communism was about worker ownership and participation &#8211; many social democrats supported those ideas even though our parties did not.  It was Stalin who turned us firmly against the USSR.  </p>
<p>Sadly, our project then took a nasty, nationalistic turn when we decided to support our respective governments during World War I.  The Communists opposed the War.    </p>
<p>Once we embarked on the Parliamentary road to &#8220;socialism&#8221; we began the process of joining the political and economic establishment and gradually moved away from large scale participatory democracy.  The legacy we live with today is that we are no longer a mass movement.  Most of our parties have few members and our organizations are highly centralized and corporate in nature.  In many countries (such as here in Canada and in much of Latin America) we are slowly disappearing from the landscape.  </p>
<p>We have little or no &#8220;ideology&#8221; left and have more-or-less folded into the global project of neo-liberal, Washington-based, military-humanism.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Rebuilding Democracy by Robin Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/rebuilding-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-3788</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 21:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3353#comment-3788</guid>
		<description>This is very illuminating and an original contribution.
In essence, we can agree that the right&#039;s model of society and politics is the market; the left&#039;s is the public square. For a generation, the right has successfully presented what the left wants to do as a burdensome and bureaucratic interference in the market, and too often a defensive centre-left has restricted its claims to self-evident market failures, marginalising more radical perspectives. We need to go on the offensive and present our goals in terms of the essential democratic role of the audible voice--rather than the &#039;invisible hand&#039;--in a society oriented towards the maximisation of well-being for all. 
In a hyper-complex networked society--including on supranational levels--where collaboration rather than competition is of the essence in everything from Wikipedia to the Large Hadron Collider, the public square with its rights of voice and exit, its common and inclusive citizenship and its rich and rapidly shifting arenas of sub-publics provides us with a metaphor and an image of the society of freedom and equality--including specifically gender equality, women having all too often been confined to the private sphere--which we want to engender. That then pushes the right on to a terrain where it is in effect defending &#039;order&#039; against democracy and emancipation, about which many on the centre-right will feel uneasy, marginalising the neo-conservatives who have dominated political debate for far too long.
Gabriele&#039;s contribution has been very helpful in clarifying this hegemonic project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very illuminating and an original contribution.<br />
In essence, we can agree that the right&#8217;s model of society and politics is the market; the left&#8217;s is the public square. For a generation, the right has successfully presented what the left wants to do as a burdensome and bureaucratic interference in the market, and too often a defensive centre-left has restricted its claims to self-evident market failures, marginalising more radical perspectives. We need to go on the offensive and present our goals in terms of the essential democratic role of the audible voice&#8211;rather than the &#8216;invisible hand&#8217;&#8211;in a society oriented towards the maximisation of well-being for all.<br />
In a hyper-complex networked society&#8211;including on supranational levels&#8211;where collaboration rather than competition is of the essence in everything from Wikipedia to the Large Hadron Collider, the public square with its rights of voice and exit, its common and inclusive citizenship and its rich and rapidly shifting arenas of sub-publics provides us with a metaphor and an image of the society of freedom and equality&#8211;including specifically gender equality, women having all too often been confined to the private sphere&#8211;which we want to engender. That then pushes the right on to a terrain where it is in effect defending &#8216;order&#8217; against democracy and emancipation, about which many on the centre-right will feel uneasy, marginalising the neo-conservatives who have dominated political debate for far too long.<br />
Gabriele&#8217;s contribution has been very helpful in clarifying this hegemonic project.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Europe at the Crossroads: It&#8217;s Now or Never! by geoff</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/europe-at-the-crossroads-its-now-or-never/comment-page-1/#comment-3784</link>
		<dc:creator>geoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3323#comment-3784</guid>
		<description>Neal,

&quot;Real democracy has to sweep through the corridors of Brussels and Strasbourg&quot; - Agreed (although it never will) But why stop there though, democracy starts at home. Let it sweep a bit further &amp; have a UK referendum on &quot;in or out&quot;. We&#039;ve been in since 1973 which seems like long enough.

&quot;A society that is secure and maximises the freedom of its people cannot be achieved solely at the level of the nation&quot; Really? Based on what? Care to provide any examples? How do I become more free by being tied up to a bunch of Belgians?

regards
geoff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neal,</p>
<p>&#8220;Real democracy has to sweep through the corridors of Brussels and Strasbourg&#8221; &#8211; Agreed (although it never will) But why stop there though, democracy starts at home. Let it sweep a bit further &amp; have a UK referendum on &#8220;in or out&#8221;. We&#8217;ve been in since 1973 which seems like long enough.</p>
<p>&#8220;A society that is secure and maximises the freedom of its people cannot be achieved solely at the level of the nation&#8221; Really? Based on what? Care to provide any examples? How do I become more free by being tied up to a bunch of Belgians?</p>
<p>regards<br />
geoff</p>
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		<title>Comment on Good Capitalism… and what would need to change for that by Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/01/good-capitalism%e2%80%a6and-what-would-need-to-change-for-that/comment-page-1/#comment-3783</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3025#comment-3783</guid>
		<description>Compulsory health and old age insurance is the wrong way to go. The German social insurance system leaves 300,000 Germans without healthcare coverage. Only socialized healthcare systems provide truly universal coverage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Compulsory health and old age insurance is the wrong way to go. The German social insurance system leaves 300,000 Germans without healthcare coverage. Only socialized healthcare systems provide truly universal coverage.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Europe at the Crossroads: It&#8217;s Now or Never! by klem</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/03/europe-at-the-crossroads-its-now-or-never/comment-page-1/#comment-3780</link>
		<dc:creator>klem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3323#comment-3780</guid>
		<description>&quot;Rooted in an analysis of the very real insecurities faced by the people of Europe –jobs, debt, public service cuts and climate change&quot;

Well at least the climate change part is dead now. So the list can be shortened to jobs, debt and public service cuts. That&#039;s a blessing. Whew!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Rooted in an analysis of the very real insecurities faced by the people of Europe –jobs, debt, public service cuts and climate change&#8221;</p>
<p>Well at least the climate change part is dead now. So the list can be shortened to jobs, debt and public service cuts. That&#8217;s a blessing. Whew!</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Faith Betrayed – The Hungarian Left and the State by Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/02/a-faith-betrayed-%e2%80%93-the-hungarian-left-and-the-state/comment-page-1/#comment-3776</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 16:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.social-europe.eu/?p=3303#comment-3776</guid>
		<description>Dear Gabor,

Thanks for your reply. I would agree with you in certain regards. Rather than seeing the current governing parties as the &quot;simple&quot; cause of the malaise, I perceive them as being both a &quot;symptom&quot; and a &quot;cause&quot;. The relationship between the political elites, wider popular culture and the overall post-1989 economic environment (which any government would have faced), is a complicated process of different interactions. If we have arrived at a point where the country is at an intractable mess, it will never just be because of one group of people. In this regard, I reject the right-wing, mainstream discourse, of blaming one party for all problems. 

Your talk of the ills of the education and health system unfortunately reminds me of the Thatcher era in the UK, where nationalised industries were publicly denounced, in preparation for an eventual quick &quot;sale&quot; - or to bolster a privatisation and process of outsourcing. Which is not to say that these systems work perfectly - but they are functional, publicly provided services, officially free at the point of use. This are important principles, which for any leftist party would be suicidal to challenge.

Nonetheless, if we are talking of active politics, we must be aware that genuine leadership has a both a moral dimension, and that politics acts as amplification to character traits. 

As the great Clement Attlee said :

&quot;A good leader must understand human nature, and particularly the human nature of the particular group of men he has as his lieutenants... He must also have good tactical judgement... A leader must have guts. He must be ready to act swiftly however much he has sweated about what is the right thing to do. Grown men, who know the score, do not want their leader to be continually beating his breast, and advertising his agonies. They want decision and action.

There is one thing about politics that I think cannot be disputed: if a man stays in them long enough, they nearly always reveal him for what he is, and he tends to get not only what he deserves, but to find in his fate the reflection of his own strength and weakness.&quot;

In a sense, we are reflecting on the general weaknesses of the Hungarian political class, the inability to provide genuine and consistent leadership and improve the state by consensus, and most importantly, the inability to construct a team of talented, trusted individuals to carry out the necessary social reforms in the interests of all members of society. 

Why Hungary? Other countries in a similar situation have been more lucky with their leaders, and their problems are now somewhat less acute. We can surely understand, that people will apportion the blame to those who benefited from the transition period, and know &quot;for whom the bell tolls.&quot;

regards

Carl</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Gabor,</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply. I would agree with you in certain regards. Rather than seeing the current governing parties as the &#8220;simple&#8221; cause of the malaise, I perceive them as being both a &#8220;symptom&#8221; and a &#8220;cause&#8221;. The relationship between the political elites, wider popular culture and the overall post-1989 economic environment (which any government would have faced), is a complicated process of different interactions. If we have arrived at a point where the country is at an intractable mess, it will never just be because of one group of people. In this regard, I reject the right-wing, mainstream discourse, of blaming one party for all problems. </p>
<p>Your talk of the ills of the education and health system unfortunately reminds me of the Thatcher era in the UK, where nationalised industries were publicly denounced, in preparation for an eventual quick &#8220;sale&#8221; &#8211; or to bolster a privatisation and process of outsourcing. Which is not to say that these systems work perfectly &#8211; but they are functional, publicly provided services, officially free at the point of use. This are important principles, which for any leftist party would be suicidal to challenge.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, if we are talking of active politics, we must be aware that genuine leadership has a both a moral dimension, and that politics acts as amplification to character traits. </p>
<p>As the great Clement Attlee said :</p>
<p>&#8220;A good leader must understand human nature, and particularly the human nature of the particular group of men he has as his lieutenants&#8230; He must also have good tactical judgement&#8230; A leader must have guts. He must be ready to act swiftly however much he has sweated about what is the right thing to do. Grown men, who know the score, do not want their leader to be continually beating his breast, and advertising his agonies. They want decision and action.</p>
<p>There is one thing about politics that I think cannot be disputed: if a man stays in them long enough, they nearly always reveal him for what he is, and he tends to get not only what he deserves, but to find in his fate the reflection of his own strength and weakness.&#8221;</p>
<p>In a sense, we are reflecting on the general weaknesses of the Hungarian political class, the inability to provide genuine and consistent leadership and improve the state by consensus, and most importantly, the inability to construct a team of talented, trusted individuals to carry out the necessary social reforms in the interests of all members of society. </p>
<p>Why Hungary? Other countries in a similar situation have been more lucky with their leaders, and their problems are now somewhat less acute. We can surely understand, that people will apportion the blame to those who benefited from the transition period, and know &#8220;for whom the bell tolls.&#8221;</p>
<p>regards</p>
<p>Carl</p>
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